General - VideoChat

Welcome to the Functional Programming Zulip Chat Archive. You can join the chat here.

Hazem

Just to clarify: 5 PM PST (I think)
EDIT: I was wrong. It is 5 PM UTC, see below

Samuel Glogger

It was utc
Im in cest and it started at 7 pm for me

Hazem

Thanks for the correction! I updated the comment :thumbs_up:

Avi Dessauer

I volunteer to moderate the general this week.

Avi Dessauer

Proposed docket.

  • An overview various effect systems and using them for error handling. With dialogue that will 30-40 minutes.
    I have real world examples of fused-effects and mtl (if needed). @TheMatten could you show an example of polysemy. And if anyone who is not in zulip has an example they will also get an opportunity to show it.

  • Is there interest in a continued conversation about Generics for the general?

  • What else belongs in the general this week? Devops, category theory, etc..
    We have 45 minutes to fill.

  • 30 minutes for topics brought up during the meeting.

  • 15 minutes is a lotted to wrapping up.

Thoughts?

Fintan Halpenny

What time is the kick off tomorrow? I might try join :)

Avi Dessauer

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
Hazem

Any suggestions for tomorrow's agenda?

We also need a moderator. I volunteer to moderate the session, but only as a back-up moderator in case no one else volunteers. Ideally it would be nice to have a new moderator each time so please feel free to step up if you're interested)

Also I really liked Avi's proposed docket style + time management during the session last week. We finished on time and covered the proposed topics, and that was a good feeling :D

TheMatten

I guess there's still interest in topics around Growing the Haskell Community

Avi Dessauer

@Hazem I enjoy moderation, if your not interested.

Bolt

Unfortunately my setup is not very stable (sometimes the connection fails) so I don't feel like I should moderate

Hazem

@Avi Dessauer Sorry I think I phrased things the wrong way. I definitely enjoy moderating and would love to moderate tomorrow (if everyone is fine with that). I was trying to emphasize that I didn't want to take up the spot of anyone one else who was looking forward to moderate.

I think it's good to encourage and prioritize new volunteers for two reasons:
1- Learning from diverse moderation styles
2- Improving the bus factor for the weekly meeting

@Bolt : No worries!

I agree with @TheMatten that there is plenty to discuss about the linked topic. Tentatively, I propose this docket:

  • 10 minutes: Greeting / Warming Up
  • 45 minutes Discussion Topic: Growing the Haskell Community - Part II
  • 15 minutes: Identifying leftover points for further discussion (via Zulip or future sessions)
  • 45 minutes: ??? (We need a topic to fill this slot)
  • 15 minutes: Identifying leftover points for further discussion (via Zulip or future sessions)
  • End of the formal session-
  • After-Party:
    No moderation. Open discussion for anyone interested in staying.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Chris Wendt

Topic suggestion: how about Haskell for scripting as opposed to Bash/Python/Ruby scripts?

  • Useful libraries: turtle, shelly, etc.
  • Executable Haskell files: #!/usr/bin/env stack with stack script and chmod +x program.hs
  • Fast execution with just-in-time compilation (cached for later)
  • Develop in ghci
Hazem

Awesome! Here is the updated docket:

  • 5 minutes: Greeting / Warming Up
  • 15 minutes: Obelisk demo by @Sridhar Ratnakumar
  • 45 minutes Discussion Topic: Growing the Haskell Community - Part II
  • 5 minutes: Identifying leftover points for further discussion (via Zulip or future sessions)
  • 45 minutes: Using Haskell for scripting
  • 5 minutes: Identifying leftover points for further discussion (via Zulip or future sessions)
  • End of the formal session-
    After-Party:
    No moderation. Open discussion for anyone interested in staying.
Hazem

See you all tomorrow at 5 PM UTC

Vance Palacio

With all the discussion on growing the Haskell community, might it be worth coming up with some sort of action plan we can take to help contribute? I know we all have lives and all that, but there are a lot of us even amongst these video calls - we could probably make a dent in something if we're working together on it

Sridhar Ratnakumar

I can give a quick demo of obelisk. 10 mins maybe. Just to get someone excited.

Hazem

@Vance Palacio Great suggestion! We should absolutely discuss this tomorrow.

I really liked this part:

I know we all have lives and all that, but there are a lot of us

It's still not clear to me whether "a lot" of people who want to work on this. I think many are busy and can't commit even if they're interested in solving this problem.

What we can do is brainstorm ideas for concrete actionable small tasks for busy people who want to take action in growing the community, but don't have a lot of time to spend on this. If there is enough interest, I think we can achieve noticeable results with good coordination.

For what it's worth, due to our discussions so far, I started working on a solo project to help with growing the Haskell community and I think I can put in a lot of time into it during the upcoming months. I going to focus on contributing to Haskell awareness + education.

If anyone else is interested in attacking this problem (growing Haskell's community) from a totally different angle, I can suggest the following based on the above discussions:
Improving the state of documentation, especially for commonly used stuff
Improving the state of tooling
Any other idea along the lines of making Haskell feel less painful to use on a daily basis

Hazem

@Sridhar Ratnakumar Awesome! I'll update the docket accordingly

Sridhar Ratnakumar

As far as documentation is concerned, that's a main goal behind https://haskell.zettel.page/ - but right now it is just me writing to it sporadically. But it'd be great to have others (I can give direct commit access to master which gets deployed instantly)

Sridhar Ratnakumar

Just send me your GitHub user name and I'll add you.

Vance Palacio

@Hazem Im really interested in the theory of learning in general. If you're working on bolstering the learning resources of Haskell, I'd be happy to help

Hazem

Quick note: I think we should consider moving the comments about growing the Haskell Community to the relevant thread (I just realized we're in VideoChat General). Let's continue the discussion there

Hazem

Is it possible to move comments between threads on Zulip?

Sridhar Ratnakumar

No, but you can put a link like I just did in the new topic.

Sridhar Ratnakumar

So video call in 2 hours? We should create a google calendar.

Hazem

https://meet.jit.si/HaskellZulip
Live now

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
Sandy Maguire

what are we talking about

Sridhar Ratnakumar

The app used in obelisk demo: https://github.com/srid/Taut

An ambitious Slack JSON export viewer. Contribute to srid/Taut development by creating an account on GitHub.
Vance Palacio

@Avi Dessauer hey Avi, you mentioned in the previous video chat about a new module system proposal for haskell, could you send me a link for that? I looked around but couldn't find anything

Sridhar Ratnakumar

Oh, I forgot to mention - the other benefit (aside from type sharing) of writing frontend in Haskell is that you get to use most Haskell libraries. For eg Taut uses the pagination library

Avi Dessauer

https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/295

This proposal suggests a conceptual reinterpretation to make modules first-class citizens in the module system. This then unlocks a number of further improvements straightforwardly. This is not nea...
Avi Dessauer

What do we want on the docket this week?
I can talk about the current state of hie, ghcide and how to install/use them with cabal and stack.
@Asad Saeeduddin Would you be willing to talk about Monoidal categories and monoidal functors?

Asad Saeeduddin

Sure, I'll prep some notes. When is this again?

Avi Dessauer

So we have two presentations things on docket.
Does anyone have topic they would like us all to have conversation about?

Avi Dessauer

Sounds good.

  1. IDE/LSPs
  2. Monoidal categories and monoidal functors
  3. Polysemy
Avi Dessauer

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
tristanC

The LSP demo was inspiring, thank you! Where was the gen-hie tool to populate the hie.yaml coming from?

Georgi Lyubenov // googleson78

https://github.com/Avi-D-coder/implicit-hie

Auto generate a stack or cabal multi component hie.yaml file - Avi-D-coder/implicit-hie
Sridhar Ratnakumar

I successfully got ghcide working with VS code (guess it is time to move from Emacs), using these instructions https://github.com/obsidiansystems/obelisk#experimental-ghcide-support ... it is really fun to develop full-stack apps with IDE support (without writing a line of JavaScript :P )

Obelisk provides an easy way to develop and deploy your Reflex project for web and mobile - obsidiansystems/obelisk
Hazem

Hi all,

We need a topic agenda for this week's video meeting (May 16th). Please post your suggested topics below and I'll pick the most mentioned ones for discussion. If anyone would like to give a talk on any FP topic, they will be given priority.

Note: Last week, we didn't have enough time to start discussing Polysemy, which was suggested by @Sridhar Ratnakumar. If there is interest in Polysemy for discussion this week, please post the specific topics of interest.

Thanks!

Reed Mullanix

If you all want, I can talk about tactics

TheMatten

When it comes to polysemy, we could maybe talk about original motivation, create some simple example, mention some differences with other libraries and talk about it's future

Bolt

Maybe give a small and intuitive explaination of what's going inside of polysemy!

TheMatten

Pinging @Sandy Maguire, @Georgi Lyubenov // googleson78, @Love Waern (King of the Homeless)

Love Waern (King of the Homeless)

I can talk about the internals of polysemy, including the weave abstraction that the library is based upon, what it lets us do, and what it keeps us from doing.

Love Waern (King of the Homeless)

@Reed Mullanix Want to talk about Tactics together? The mechanism is inherently connected toweave, so it's a good opportunity for me to talk about why Tactics is the way it is.

Hazem

Great! It looks like Polysemy will be the main topic for this session. I therefore suggest the following:

First 30 minutes: @TheMatten would you be willing to give a brief casual intro to Polysemy, along with the points you suggested (quoted below)?

we could maybe talk about original motivation, create some simple example, mention some differences with other libraries and talk about it's future

15 minutes: Q/A about the introductory talk

45 minutes: A talk or discussion about specific polysemy topics (tactics, Polysemy internals, weave abstraction, any other topic). @Love Waern (King of the Homeless) and @Reed Mullanix I don't know if you are coordinating a talk. If that doesn't work we can still have a discussion about these topics. It doesn't have to be in a talk format.

Any suggestions are welcome!

Love Waern (King of the Homeless)

Reed and I have not coordinated a talk. My plan was that I'd discuss polysemy internals first, since it leads nicely into talking about why Tactics is the way it is, but doing that may take longer than than the allotted time, so perhaps it's better that @Reed Mullanix starts with Tactics, and then I talk as much about the internals as I have time for.

Hazem

We're starting in 30 minutes. I'll post the today's jitsi link in a bit

Hazem

The link for today's meeting: https://meet.jit.si/ZulipFP

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
Reed Mullanix

Hey all, sorry I missed this, wasn't feeling super great :(

TheMatten

@Reed Mullanix Hmm, that's pity - you can still join though if you want :slight_smile:

Avi Dessauer

How would people feel about a more conversational chat this week?
What would you all like to talk about?

Hazem

IMO verbal conversations are hard to hold effectively with more than 3 or 4 participants at a time

Hazem

With large groups it'll feel more like a moderated panel discussion than a chat style conversation

Hazem

to be clear I'm not opposing attempts to give it a try

Avi Dessauer

Well tomorrows going to be very relaxed, basically after part for the whole thing. If anyone want to suggest topics you can do it now or during.

Hazem

I think this might be interesting for a brief discussion:
https://www.patreon.com/csaba_hruska
It seems like there was recent progress: https://twitter.com/csaba_hruska/status/1262882474419421184

Become a patron of Csaba Hruska today: Read 6 posts by Csaba Hruska and get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.
Hazem

I am not knowledgeable at all about this, but I'd love to listen to people talk about it :P

Sridhar Ratnakumar

how would you folks want this to happen?

TheMatten

I think separate call could be good idea, because there's potentially a lot to show/talk about, plus time for questions

TheMatten

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
James King

I've been kicking myself for missing the last few of these. I hope to make it out to the next one.

Bolt

Same, I wish some of them were recorded!

Avi Dessauer

Anyone interested in a specific topic tomorrow?

I'm thinking the effects are useless thread would be an interesting conversation.

For the most part I expect it to be mostly after party. 5PM UTC.

TheMatten

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
Samuel Glogger

Hey guys, unfortunately I won't be able to come today, but I wish you much fun in the meeting!

Pawel Szulc

wait, so you meet each week?

Hazem

@Pawel Szulc we meet every week on Satruday at 5PM UTC. We post the jitsi link in this thread before every meeting.

Usually the meeting is a discussion of the topics we propose in the meeting agenda, and sometimes we have moderated presentations whenever anyone is interested in presenting a topic.

Of course, anyone interested in Haskell/FP is welcome to join!

TheMatten

What topics are planned today?

Bolt

We could talk about ZuriHac and if everyone is attending, what projects are everyone interested in, idk :p

Bolt

Is there a link for today? Will the meeting be postponed?

Hazem

It should start in 30 minutes at the usual time

Bolt

Oh right! I forgot I'm on UTC-1

TheMatten

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
TheMatten

So apparently they had backup system (physical buttons) in case their "webapp" fails :big_smile:

James King

TheMatten said:

So apparently they had backup system (physical buttons) in case their "webapp" fails :big_smile:

That's what I was trying to say. They also talked about it briefly on the launch day live stream. :)

Asad Saeeduddin

Having a mechanical backup to a digital control system is just good FMEA. This sort of thing is part of engineering standards even for stuff like cars.

TheMatten

:100:, it's just that it feels like sort of necessity for their SW stack...

James King

Maybe the conditions for space craft are sufficiently different that the engineering team at SpaceX felt comfortable with touch screen controls but the Navy accident report cited touch screen controls as a factor in a fatal collision.

James King

Which is probably why they have physical controls for all of the touch screen ones on Dragon. :)

TheMatten

I don't think they're going to be that fancy during Artemis - I mean, maybe it's just SpaceX and NASA/older companies are going to be more conservative

Artemis is the name of NASA's program to return astronauts to the lunar surface by 2024. We are going forward to the Moon to stay.
Avi Dessauer

This week there will be no video chat due to https://zfoh.ch/zurihac2020/.

ZuriHac is a free annual haskell event brought to you by «Zürich Friends of Haskell»
Avi Dessauer

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
TheMatten

Hmm, I won't be able to join tomorrow - when is "Nix" topic planned?

Avi Dessauer

Anyone mind skipping this week?

Bolt

I don't mind at all

TheMatten

Anyone interested in meetup this week? I would propose Nix and Continuations as possible topics

James King

That would be cool. I keep hearing about nix but every time I read a tutorial it's like... monad tutorials. I'd be down.

TheMatten

Okay, pinging others originally interested in those topics: @Sridhar Ratnakumar @Matthias Putz @Hazem @Chris Wendt @Asad Saeeduddin @Avi Dessauer @Fintan Halpenny @tristanC @Pawel Szulc @Domen Kožar @Ahmad Abdelwahed @Vance Palacio

Georgi Lyubenov // googleson78

slightly off-topic from this weeks meetup, but there is this thing - https://www.calla.chat/
that can allow for "breaking off into smaller more focused groups"

Voice chat with an RPG map. Volume scales with distance from other users. Walk around, talk to folks, have private conversations by huddling in a corner, or drop in on other conversations. Ideal for meetups!
Domen Kožar

I'm happy to talk about Nix+Haskell, but let's find a good date. I'd prefer during the week rather than the weekend.

TheMatten

I'm okay with basically any day next week

Fintan Halpenny

I've got a birthday party to go to this weekend so won't make it :sad:

Fintan Halpenny

During the week might be doable for me :blush:

Bolt

Sure, fine by me!

Ahmad Abdelwahed

I am fine if we make Nix discussion in a weekday but let's meet this weekend at least for 30 mins, we didn't meet for two or three weeks and if we keep skipping the initiative may die.

Anyway it's up to you but I don't want to see this meetup die, although I don't contribute but I learn a lot :slight_smile:

TheMatten

One idea - because Nix is probably going to take longer time, we could talk about Continuations + random topics today

TheMatten

Okay, pinging others interested in Continuations: @Avi Dessauer @Vance Palacio @Hazem

TheMatten

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
Ahmad Abdelwahed

Thanks @TheMatten it was an interesting session, I will go through the code and study it.

TheMatten

Updated snippet with some changes - I've tidied it up a little bit

tristanC

I wish I could have joined you the last times, but I got too busy with real life. Are we having a meetup today?

TheMatten

Personally I'm interested

TheMatten

We could possibly continue with native continuations if anyone's interested - pinging @Ahmad Abdelwahed

TheMatten

Click to join video call

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
tristanC

Thanks again @TheMatten and @Ahmad Abdelwahed for the lesson, it was very instructive! Take care :-)

TheMatten

Native continuations proposal: https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pull/313

This is a proposal for adding primops for capturing slices of the RTS stack to improve the performance of algebraic effect systems, which require delimited continuations. Rendered
TheMatten

I'll update original snippet on Gitlab once I tidy it up a little bit

Ahmad Abdelwahed

Thanks @TheMatten for your explanation and patience

tristanC

I'd be happy to attend the Continuation study if it is still on going, or just chat about random things if you are up for that too :-) Anyone interested?

tristanC

For example, I've been working on quite a bit of on-boarding materials lately and I'd be interested to talk about Haskell learning experience.

Ahmad Abdelwahed

@TheMatten are you going to make it today?

tristanC

Well I'm here for the next hour or so: https://meet.jit.si/ZulipFP

Join a WebRTC video conference powered by the Jitsi Videobridge
TheMatten

@Ahmad Abdelwahed sorry, I don't feel well and I completely forgot about - I could join e.g. tomorrow if you want to continue this weekend :slight_smile:

Ahmad Abdelwahed

TheMatten said:

Ahmad Abdelwahed sorry, I don't feel well and I completely forgot about - I could join e.g. tomorrow if you want to continue this weekend :slight_smile:

@TheMatten No worries at all I hope you fell better soon, tomorrow will be difficult let's meet next Saturday and stay safe my friend :blush:

TheMatten

Anyone wants to discuss https://haskell.love here? I can't get mic in https://spatial.chat to work personally

Sridhar Ratnakumar

It works only Chrome (or Chromium I guess)

TheMatten

@Ahmad Abdelwahed are you interested in call today? :smile:

Ahmad Abdelwahed

Hi @TheMatten thanks for asking but I am not feeling well today, I won't be able to make it