Code of Conduct - Random

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Torsten Schmits

Sridhar Ratnakumar said:

I was thinking of tweeting: A thread on Haskell committee's guidelines for respectful communication garners much less respectful communication.

I get the impulse to be sarcastic about it. however, this particular discussion comes up on all CoC topics, it's people equivocating the acknowledgement of white people being the ruling class with white genocide. it's not a curiosity

Sridhar Ratnakumar

Generally I'm fine with CoCs, as long as they are worded to treat all groups fairly. Sadly most CoCs in tech are derived from Covenant CoC, which has a loophole - something I addressed once in the dhall's CoC: https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-haskell/pull/1619

CoC can also be abused in a non-political manner, eg: https://www.fast.ai/2020/10/28/code-of-conduct/

I believe I speak for everyone when I take "harassment-free experience," as delineated in this CoC, to include harassment based on political beliefs (conservative, liberal, libertarian, e...
Torsten Schmits

I would say that politics is a very broad and ambiguously used term, but a CoC is a political document, since it governs decision making rules about communities. the phrase "political belief" clashes with all the other components of a CoC in my opinion. especially since most of the rules are targeted specifically at people from certain political strains

Mats Rauhala

There were some really unconstructive criticisms on twitter. Something along the lines "layout vomit" "it's actually impossible to read" etc.

And while we could say from the sidelines that the comments weren't too bad, we can't see all the criticism they received. Not only on this AOH, but also on other content they have provided. Maybe this was just the last straw?

codygman

Can't say I agree that "political beliefs" is a good addition there. Nazi is a political belief deserving of no respect as well as other political ideologies which infringe upon the rights of others.

Roughly my belief is no tolerance of intolerance ala paradox of tolerance like Karl Popper talks about.

codygman

I see Gabriel covers some of this here: https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-haskell/pull/1619#issuecomment-570082617

I believe I speak for everyone when I take "harassment-free experience," as delineated in this CoC, to include harassment based on political beliefs (conservative, liberal, libertarian, e...
Torsten Schmits

one important aspect might be that if the CoC protects you from harassment based on something, it might not protect you from being expelled because of it. so the community could still decide to exclude a nazi.

otoh, it feels wrong to put it in a list with gender identity and ethnicity

Torsten Schmits

and I think it is important to note that for many marginalized people, the mere presence of a person in a racism hat is a strong repellant that might prevent them from even considering being part of a community

Sridhar Ratnakumar

"Nazi", as it is being thrown around today, is loaded language; it is useless.

As Gabriel notes, the key qualifier (for the CoC to not discriminate based on one's political belief) is "insofar as they don't conflict with the rest of the Code of Conduct" - so Charles Max Wood is allowed to wear a MAGA hat in his personal life (indicating conservatism as a political belief), and even though some people may think he is a "nazi" for supporting Trump (guilt by proxy etc.), as long as he doesn't violate the rest of the CoC (by, say, expressing a racist belief or just being rude to someone) - he should be welcome.

codygman

Is "discriminate based on political belief" the way to word that? Why not "held accountable for their political belief"?

When you go from talking primarily about not discriminating based on immutable characteristics and then throw in beliefs or religion as if they are the same that doesn't seem right.

I realize I'm echoing what @Torsten Schmits said after writing that though.

Also, does a MAGA hat really indicate conservatism?

Torsten Schmits

I think there is no way to reach consensus on this rhetorically. it's a question of whether you want your project to be a free market or a community with an agreed upon identity

codygman

so Charles Max Wood is allowed to wear a MAGA hat in his personal life (indicating conservatism as a political belief), and even though some people may think he is a "nazi" for supporting Trump (guilt by proxy etc.), as long as he doesn't violate the rest of the CoC (by, say, expressing a racist belief or just being rude to someone) - he should be welcome.

What about those who feel unwelcome because of his presence?

It seems a value judgement of who's feeling welcome is more valuable gets made here.

Torsten Schmits

codygman said:

Roughly my belief is no tolerance of intolerance ala paradox of tolerance like Karl Popper talks about.

this is really all that's needed

Sridhar Ratnakumar

/poll Split CoC discussion into separate topic and move it to #Random
Yes, move
No, keep

Sridhar Ratnakumar

Reasons for split and move: a) keep #Haskell focused, b) keep https://haskell.pl-a.net/ (which accumulates this stream) on topic :-)

Sridhar Ratnakumar

codygman said:

What about those who feel unwelcome because of [Charles Max Wood's] presence [because of his political belief, re: wearing MAGA hat]?

It seems a value judgement of who's feeling welcome is more valuable gets made here.

If someone feels unwelcome because of Charles's mere presence (say in a project or a conference), I'd imagine that the CoC committee will have to deal with it on a case by case basis, gathering more information (from the offendee, as well as what about the offender triggered the offense). I don't see how anyone can codify this simply in a CoC; how would you phrase the language to remove MAGA hat wearers, without resorting to loaded language (which is also vague enough to encourage abuse), especially as that would describe half the people who voted in 2016?

I don't think I understand your second sentence.

Sridhar Ratnakumar

For the record, the whole taking and giving offense phenomemon (which is related to some of the cases that the CoC covers) is another topic of its own (and connects to actualism), but CoC discussions usually dare not approach that topic, so I normally leave it at the door ... however your value judgement comment (IIUC) may step into that territory.