@pwb@vrom911@AdventOfHaskell@functionaljobs Well, if people are always unhappy, I guess I'll never going to do anything like that. What's the point of spending my free time on something nobody is going to appreciate.
https://nitter.net/vrom911/status/1321893252992217090#m
Yeah - I found 3 hostile threads on Reddit, compared to bunch of positive ones, 50 upvotes, and lots of support on Twitter
Does it really have anything to do with Haskell community? I mean, I've seen much more hostile communication in subreddits of other languages
@Georgi Lyubenov // googleson78 Yeah - people appreciate such work even though they don't respond textually
I use upvotes and emojis when online to express support - I feel like I would be wasting everyone's time by cluttering comments with generic responses
While trolls have bunch of time and nothing else to do...
At the end, it feels undeserved to be called naughty just because of few people that we're in no way associated with and which can't appreciate the smallest amount of voluntary work
I'm sure there are circumstances beyond what we see, so I'm not taking the "[the hs community] being called naughty" to heart - after all these people are one of the biggest (afaik) supporters of the community and spreading information with blogposts, documentation, libraries, etc - my point being that this isn't some regularly occurring thing about spreading FUD
Would it make sense to propose taking over that initiative if original authors aren't interested anymore? They shoudn't be forced to continue if they don't want, but personally I would like to see something like that running
it seems to me that what is lacking in the community is cohesion and clarity about who to be familiar with, if an initiative can so easily derailed by a few toxic people
I don't think searching of appreciation from concrete people is a right thing to do - general attitude is what actually decides the success of specific project, and in this case it was mostly positive
Looking at "bigger perspective", how many programmers appreciate work around Haskell? Searching through communities like HN, one can sometimes feel like if there was some general disgust against it, even though it's often just vocal group of /r/iamverysmart people bashing every thing they don't use themselves, but often people just don't care - I mean. you can only ever care about limited amount of things and there's so much stuff happening around us all the time
I mean, it's hard to ever get some sort of clarity about what people like or dislike or care about, so maybe we should just search for amount of positive feedback and negative feedback that's actually constructive
And not care about the rest - but it's true that's not trivial, so we should maybe gently nudge people managing our communities to be as active as possible when it comes to filtering toxic content
totally. I would just expect, for example, if @TheMatten would do an advent of code, you would first post it here maybe, and you would have already some basic support and feedback from your regular peers, and wouldn't be too fazed by some twitter or reddit assholes
Would it make sense to propose taking over that initiative if original authors aren't interested anymore? They shoudn't be forced to continue if they don't want, but personally I would like to see something like that running
@chrislpenner@AdventOfHaskell It is easy to tell "let others lead that", as it would, of course, solve the issue and benefit the community. Because the issue is us, I understand you. But that is not fair behaviour towards us.
Yeah - and in retrospective, I only remember their work being taken in a very positive way, so that's one more reason why I'm surprised about such a strong reaction to those comments
(I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm just confused)
It is very mentally draining to be disregarded, being nitpicked at, or ignored.
It makes you not want to invest your time doing things for others.
I have been ignored and nitpicked at on several occasions, this makes me not want to publish as much, and definitely not share my stuff on (for example) reddit because my interactions there were not so positive.
Kowainik I believe have also had several occasions where their efforts and work was nitpicked at or ignored (for example I remember some talk about logging with comonads that did not mention co-log at all, or now someone only said that their background is nauseating).
It doesn't take much to say "wow I don't need this" and decide it isn't worth it.
I think we as people can learn from that and think how we can communicate with authors over the internet in a way that will both deliver our point if there is one and also empower authors to keep doing what they do.
it seems that they (kowainik) got several disadvantage in Haskell. the last one is regarding haskellX. I believe they'll still make great contribution to Haskell community.
Well, that's a bummer. Now #HaskellX is a male-only conference. I think, if you have a single woman speaking at your conference, you could spend a little extra time paying more attention that her talk won't become invalidated by other speakers at the same conference. https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1323551150902288385
I think she's upset that her talk is practically invalidated (according to her) by SPJs talk, and if the organisers provided her with this information she could have avoided putting in time/effort to make her talk
Spend tons of time on my talk @ #HaskellX :broken_heart:
Strangely, the committee took me in, even knowing about #HaskellFoundation. It's great for Haskell & I'm happy to see it, but it invalidates my talk. I don't see Problem-Pointing-CFA coming after Problem-Solver talk by SPJ himself!:silence:https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1323551150902288385/photo/1
I assume something like this:
her talk points out that X Y Z are problems that need solving, and SPJs talk announces that they are forming HF to address X Y Z
Hello! This is @raichoo, I have taken over this account from my good friends at @kowainik. There are some things cooking :fingers_crossed:Watch this space! #Haskell
Announced, and cancelled the same day :-/
https://twitter.com/AdventOfHaskell
https://twitter.com/ChShersh/status/1321834679155236864
@pwb @vrom911 @AdventOfHaskell @functionaljobs Well, if people are always unhappy, I guess I'll never going to do anything like that. What's the point of spending my free time on something nobody is going to appreciate.
- Dmitrii Kovanikov (@ChShersh)weird
Reddit submission
I was curious... I saw the link on Twitter and the page said it was cancelled? What happened?
I think they got a lot of people whining
That's too bad. The usual AOC challenges are a little bit more challenging in Haskell than other languages.
Would be nice to have some Haskell-tailored ones. :)
That's not what Advent of Haskell would be. It was supposed to encourage people to write blog posts and discuss them!
Also cool :)
I don't understand, in that thread, only 1 ppl put negative comment which is
Anrock623https://nitter.net/vrom911/status/1321893252992217090#m
Yeah - I found 3 hostile threads on Reddit, compared to bunch of positive ones, 50 upvotes, and lots of support on Twitter
Does it really have anything to do with Haskell community? I mean, I've seen much more hostile communication in subreddits of other languages
the original response was like 90% people criticising
I'm sure even if they didin't shut it down the responses over time would have been 99% positive
Ah so the original thread got deleted?
@Georgi Lyubenov // googleson78 Yeah - people appreciate such work even though they don't respond textually
I use upvotes and emojis when online to express support - I feel like I would be wasting everyone's time by cluttering comments with generic responses
While trolls have bunch of time and nothing else to do...
At the end, it feels undeserved to be called naughty just because of few people that we're in no way associated with and which can't appreciate the smallest amount of voluntary work
it definitely is helpful to be able to ignore the trolls, but sadly not trivial
:100: - but the only other option is to let community be damaged for no good reason
I'm sure there are circumstances beyond what we see, so I'm not taking the "[the hs community] being called naughty" to heart - after all these people are one of the biggest (afaik) supporters of the community and spreading information with blogposts, documentation, libraries, etc - my point being that this isn't some regularly occurring thing about spreading FUD
I'm so lost here without seeing the original thread.
Would it make sense to propose taking over that initiative if original authors aren't interested anymore? They shoudn't be forced to continue if they don't want, but personally I would like to see something like that running
it seems to me that what is lacking in the community is cohesion and clarity about who to be familiar with, if an initiative can so easily derailed by a few toxic people
I don't think searching of appreciation from concrete people is a right thing to do - general attitude is what actually decides the success of specific project, and in this case it was mostly positive
Plus, even if 9000 out of 10000 people didn't like your work (which isn't the case here), 1000 is still a lot :smile:
Looking at "bigger perspective", how many programmers appreciate work around Haskell? Searching through communities like HN, one can sometimes feel like if there was some general disgust against it, even though it's often just vocal group of /r/iamverysmart people bashing every thing they don't use themselves, but often people just don't care - I mean. you can only ever care about limited amount of things and there's so much stuff happening around us all the time
feels like you're making the same point as I was
I mean, it's hard to ever get some sort of clarity about what people like or dislike or care about, so maybe we should just search for amount of positive feedback and negative feedback that's actually constructive
And not care about the rest - but it's true that's not trivial, so we should maybe gently nudge people managing our communities to be as active as possible when it comes to filtering toxic content
totally. I would just expect, for example, if @TheMatten would do an advent of code, you would first post it here maybe, and you would have already some basic support and feedback from your regular peers, and wouldn't be too fazed by some twitter or reddit assholes
I wouldn't worry about being naughty, Santa can't come into houses with these covid restrictions
TheMatten said:
Talk to them privately, keeping this reaction in mind: https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1321898106687029254
@chrislpenner @AdventOfHaskell It is easy to tell "let others lead that", as it would, of course, solve the issue and benefit the community. Because the issue is us, I understand you. But that is not fair behaviour towards us.
- Veronika Romashkina (@vrom911)this is so weird. being obscure about the reasons isn't helping either
Yeah - and in retrospective, I only remember their work being taken in a very positive way, so that's one more reason why I'm surprised about such a strong reaction to those comments
(I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm just confused)
Has anyone linked to any of the negative feedback or tweets?
Sridhar Ratnakumar said:
wasn't there another thread that was deleted?
wasn't there another thread that was deleted?
I have no idea
Torsten Schmits said:
I think so.
Hmm I did message to ask for a slot. This is a shame.
It is very mentally draining to be disregarded, being nitpicked at, or ignored.
It makes you not want to invest your time doing things for others.
I have been ignored and nitpicked at on several occasions, this makes me not want to publish as much, and definitely not share my stuff on (for example) reddit because my interactions there were not so positive.
Kowainik I believe have also had several occasions where their efforts and work was nitpicked at or ignored (for example I remember some talk about logging with comonads that did not mention co-log at all, or now someone only said that their background is nauseating).
It doesn't take much to say "wow I don't need this" and decide it isn't worth it.
I think we as people can learn from that and think how we can communicate with authors over the internet in a way that will both deliver our point if there is one and also empower authors to keep doing what they do.
Torsten Schmits said:
I don't think so. Looks like there was a misunderstanding of someone's comment above.
Follow-up thread on reddit, with 50 comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/jkwl5u/haskell_committee_guidelines_for_respectful/
I remember that discussion. It's here. EDIT: Oh, looks to be wrong thread.
Incidentally, I only remembered it due to my Zettelkasten notes :-D cf. https://www.srid.ca/2012701.html
Sridhar Ratnakumar said:
there are certainly some toxic specimen reacting to this
I was thinking of tweeting: A thread on Haskell committee's guidelines for respectful communication garners much less respectful communication.
Sridhar Ratnakumar said:
oh my.
Further responses in this thread regarding Code of Conduct have been moved to Random.
it seems that they (kowainik) got several disadvantage in Haskell. the last one is regarding haskellX. I believe they'll still make great contribution to Haskell community.
https://twitter.com/ChShersh/status/1323556993911660554
Well, that's a bummer. Now #HaskellX is a male-only conference. I think, if you have a single woman speaking at your conference, you could spend a little extra time paying more attention that her talk won't become invalidated by other speakers at the same conference. https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1323551150902288385
- Dmitrii Kovanikov (@ChShersh)not quite sure what's happening there – SPJ is introducing the haskell foundation? and that conflicts with vrom911's talk?
Apparently. Lack of communication. She said the talks could have worked together if she was aware of the foundation, but alas
Does anyone know what her talk would have been about?
I think she's upset that her talk is practically invalidated (according to her) by SPJs talk, and if the organisers provided her with this information she could have avoided putting in time/effort to make her talk
do you know in what way it is invalidated?
https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1323551150902288385?s=20
Spend tons of time on my talk @ #HaskellX :broken_heart: Strangely, the committee took me in, even knowing about #HaskellFoundation. It's great for Haskell & I'm happy to see it, but it invalidates my talk. I don't see Problem-Pointing-CFA coming after Problem-Solver talk by SPJ himself!:silence: https://twitter.com/vrom911/status/1323551150902288385/photo/1
- Veronika Romashkina (@vrom911)What were the talks about? I can't find any abstract or information of either
I don't see Problem-Pointing-CFA coming after Problem-Solver talk by SPJ himself!but what does than mean!!
I assume something like this:
her talk points out that X Y Z are problems that need solving, and SPJs talk announces that they are forming HF to address X Y Z
oh!
:( Kowainik are very not lucky this week.
It's back: https://twitter.com/AdventOfHaskell/status/1323919425532289035
Hello! This is @raichoo, I have taken over this account from my good friends at @kowainik. There are some things cooking :fingers_crossed:Watch this space! #Haskell
- Advent of Haskell (@AdventOfHaskell)The website is ready too: https://www.adventofhaskell.com/
I guess I would try to participate - are you guys more interested in "GADTs from first principles" or "Desugaring Haskell into Haskell"?
ugh i hate the christmas theme
I am going to try as well! Maybe talk about Denotational Design!
Great news!
GADTs seem a good theme @TheMatten